The following exchange of "opinions" took place on The Guardian´s Comment is Free online forum. My original complaint was focused on the comparison of Gaza with Stalingrad, and the implication that the Hamas organisation was somehow a Palestinian version of the Red Army and the rest of the brave defenders of Stalingrad. I'm not sure that the person accusing me of being Hamas friendly - a charge that I absolutely deny, not least because I consider Hamas to be horrible at best - has even read my views on the subject. I am not sure that the accuser was consciously aware that they were implicitly casting the IDF in the role of the Nazi Army in it's intention to conquer Russia and destroy Stalingrad, but in this case the people of Gaza. Is this another own goal for zealous stupidity?
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/mar/18/middleeast-palestinian-territories
20 Mar 09, 1:09pm (about 3 hours ago)
Mceasy - Actually, it does. Not just CIF, but every real debate, among intellectually honest people makes a difference.
If only to speak of myself, the debates here have been instrumental in sharpening my vision of Israel, which is, unfortunately not very flattering.
As to standing in the Palestinian shoes, do not forget that for hundreds of years, Jews have done precisely that. The thing that puzzles me is that Israelis generally have leaned nothing and forgot nothing from this bleak period in history. you may call us the modern Bourbons.
but given the fact that the Palestinians are genuinely fighting for their rights, they have been - and still are - suffering from an appalling leadership. the latest war in Gaza has been provoked by the boasting of Hamas which taunted and taunted Israel to come in, and when Israel did it (and believe me, i am not excusing Israel) they have left the population fend for themselves, while they cowardly melted away.
One of the reason Israel reacted with such violence was due tot he disinformation campaign Hamas has waged for two years, presenting Gaza as a new Stalingrad. I am not surprised that the IDF have gone in with such force and violence, as they expected a much stronger resistance.
20 Mar 09, 1:54pm (about 2 hours ago)
Hamas has waged for two years, presenting Gaza as a new Stalingrad. I am not surprised that the IDF have gone in with such force and violence, as they expected a much stronger resistance.
If Gaza was really considered to be the new Stalingrad you wouldn't get anyone going in there these days. Do you seriously think that Hamas could even talk themselves up to be as deadly as the Red Army?
20 Mar 09, 1:59pm (about 2 hours ago)
I can just imagine Mossad HQ "Oh bloody hell, we'd better get down there quick, the Red Army is in town" ... Do you think that if they were the Red Army they'd be lobbing home made Qassams? Yes, I do know that can kill and injure people. But seriously, that must be the daftest claim I have ever read on CiF.
One of the reason Israel reacted with such violence was due tot he disinformation campaign Hamas has waged for two years, presenting Gaza as a new Stalingrad. I am not surprised that the IDF have gone in with such force and violence, as they expected a much stronger resistance.
20 Mar 09, 2:18pm (about 2 hours ago)
Martynineurope
this is the difference between armchair thinkers like you and people like AKUS, Sydk and myself. We are here and are able to see things differently.
Hamas claimed to have built an underground network of tunnels, a la Hezbollah. You keep talking of primitive quassams, when in fact thy have hundreds of Grads which can reach major cities. You insist on seeing Hamas as inoffensive amateurs, when they have a 12,000 strong army, complete with protective vests, communication centers, sharpshooters and killing zones. I myself have seen heir spokesmen "inviting" Israel to come and be met with 1000's of deaths. We have seen maps of their fortifications, with explosives under roads, in schools and bunkers in mosques.
WHY should we not believe them? Iran and Hezbollah are bankrolling them, are training them and are arming them.
But, do on, pretend this is all about Israel's evil. This is exactly what Khaled is talking about: bad faith on both sides. You, mr, are a Hamas apologist. i wonder how you say"hasbara" in Arabic.
20 Mar 09, 2:23pm (about 2 hours ago)
Zarbuvit2009
20 Mar 09, 2:18pm (1 minute ago)
Martynineurope
this is the difference between armchair thinkers like you and people like AKUS, Sydk and myself. We are here and are able to see things differently.
Able to see things differently, or simply see things differently?
You keep talking of primitive quassams
I keep talking of primitive Qassams? What does this mean?
You, mr, are a Hamas apologist. i wonder how you say"hasbara" in Arabic.
That is simply intemperate and unfounded bullshit.
20 Mar 09, 2:34pm (about 1 hour ago)
Martyn, if "bullshit" is all you can say, i suggest you have nothing better to say. As I said, you are an apologist for one of the most odious regimes in a region where odious regimes are the standard.
20 Mar 09, 2:37pm (about 1 hour ago)
20 Mar 09, 2:34pm (1 minute ago)
Martyn, if "bullshit" is all you can say, i suggest you have nothing better to say. As I said, you are an apologist for one of the most odious regimes in a region where odious regimes are the standard.
Okay, if you insist with your claim that I am an "apologist for one of the most odious regimes in a region where odious regimes are the standard" then I think you'd better start to try and prove it, or else apologise for this libellous claim.
20 Mar 09, 3:19pm (41 minutes ago)
Martyn, when people shout, it means they are wrong.
20 Mar 09, 3:26pm (35 minutes ago)
Zarbuvit2009
20 Mar 09, 3:19pm (5 minutes ago)
Martyn, when people shout, it means they are wrong.
I think you may find that in come countries libel is a far more serious than highlighting text in bold.
So, are you going to apologise or are you going to attempt to prove your accusation?
20 Mar 09, 3:38pm (22 minutes ago)
but i did prove it. i presented the case that Israel acted according to a certain logic, i.e that since Hamas presented itself as much stronger than it was in reality, israel responded in kind. you chose to counter my arguments with bogus stories of pseudo meeting of the mosad or such nonsense. you keep presenting Hamas as an innocuous, harmless organization, while i gave you figures. to me, it looks like you are a Hamas apologetic.
if you go along the thread, you will see that i blame Israel for its criminal acts. i am not hiding behind "anti-semitism". what Israeli soldiers did in my name is unspeakable and i hope the responsible will pay the price.
i am trying to be fair. you, sir, are not.
As to your empty threat of suing me for libel, do you best.
20 Mar 09, 3:42pm (18 minutes ago)
Zarbuvit2009
20 Mar 09, 3:38pm (1 minute ago)
but i did prove it. ....
You did not, so you are simply compunding a libel.
you keep presenting Hamas as an innocuous, harmless organization, while i gave you figures. to me, it looks like you are a Hamas apologetic.
More libel.
As to your empty threat of suing me for libel, do you best.
Suing for libel? I don't have to take it to ADL.
20 Mar 09, 3:47pm (14 minutes ago)
Zarbuvit2009:
For your information.
I do not post as an anonymous user on the CiF section of The Guardian´s internet site. My identity is known and therefore any serious and false allegation is libellous, no matter how anonymous the person doing the libelling is.
20 Mar 09, 3:53pm (8 minutes ago)
Grow up.
20 Mar 09, 4:00pm (1 minute ago)
Zarbuvit2009
20 Mar 09, 3:53pm (6 minutes ago)
Grow up.
Growing up doesn't imply losing the sense of honesty, decency or legality. Certainly in no democratic and civil society that I am familiar with.
Print | posted on Friday, March 20, 2009 12:00 AM